Phillips Interview #3: The Beer Carries Itself

In this final part of the Phillips interview, we talk about the future of the brewery, and Matt Phillips comments on craft-brewery vs. craft-brewery legal issues.

As I'm sipping the last of Matt Phillips' prototype Steinbier, I notice an assistant gesticulating to get his attention. He has another appointment and the visitor is waiting. Damn, I think, probably someone more important than a beer blogger. Phillips tells me to relax, he's got time. I launch into a final round of questions, pissed off that I saved some of the big ones for last.

- SO, apart from the ones I've tried today, what beers are planned for the summer?

MP: There's going to be a Kölsch in the Showcase [Phillips' 12-pack mixer].

- Didn't you do a Kölsh last year?

MP: That's right, the Hudson Light. It was our charity beer. We do one every year. Our way of putting a bit back in.

- Speaking of funds, your brewery was famously started with a stack of credit cards. Are you finally out of debt yet?

MP: No WAY! I'm in way more debt [laughs]. Paying that off is never going to happen!

- Maybe you need to expand your business model. Your reception area looks like a good spot for a bar?

MP: I never really considered opening a bar. We got a good thing going, and good relationships with local places. I'm not into becoming their competitor. But that said, I'm getting more into food and beer pairings. A food-related venture is an inevitable destination. I don't want a brewpub, but I'm excited about putting on cheese-tastings and other pairing events. So far we haven't had a lot of interest from local chefs but I'm hoping that will change. Food is really a part of what beer is all about for me.

I spend a bit more time fishing for Phillips' favourite beers. He plays safe and goes weak at the knees about Pliny the Elder. Jason from Driftwood had the same reaction. Great. That finally shatters the "Pliny is over-hyped" conspiracy theory that I had invented for myself because I can't get hold of any.

So who are his influences? He credits the original Whistler Brewing Company (apparently a step above the mediocre brewing outfit that currently bears that name), and also Ben Schottle. So, a former employer and a current work colleague. Another safe play by Phillips. But I do finally trick him into admitting that he holds naked midnight brewing sessions during which beer demons are summoned. I swear.

Back to reality, and a serious side of it at that: I finally broach the topic of legal disputes between craft breweries. Back in 2007, Phillips was forced to change the name of his "Blue Truck Ale" to "Blue Buck Ale" — in order to avoid the threat of legal action brought by the Red Truck Beer Company of North Vancouver. Sadly, legal disputes between craft-breweries are not that rare. Central City Brewing are currently facing possible legal action by Bear Republic, who allege that Central City's "Red Racer IPA" infringes on their own "Racer 5 IPA" and "Red Rocket Ale" brews.

Now, like many people, my initial reaction was "assholes." As if the craft industry doesn't have enough to deal with competing with macros and getting their beers into new mouths, without petty squabbles amongst themselves. And exactly how many craft-brew drinkers (generally a discerning bunch) are going to mistake the BC beer for either of the California brews — especially when their crossover markets are small? But the more I think about it, the more I realize that both breweries are victims of a virulent litigious culture that punishes you for not attacking the vaguest infringements of copyright. Despite his personal anguish over the name-change, Matt Phillips is sensitive to the larger issues at play:

MP: With Red Racer, there was a lot of people thinking that there could be an issue there. I have empathy for them both. It's not a fun thing to go through. Bear Republic has a lot invested in their brand, and they have the trademark. But the reality is if they don't protect it, their trademark is gone. It's kind of tough. Craft brewers aren't the kind of people who are litigious...but quite often we're forced into real-world situations that don't reflect our personalities. I feel sorry for Gary over at Central City and he's dealing with a US brewery and they tend to litigate first, ask questions later...it's one of those realities.

The problem is, if Bear Republic did not object to perceived similarities, then in the eyes of the law, they have failed to defend their trademark. This would permit a predatory company to aggressively rip off the Bear Republic brand, safe from legal action, because they would likely be able to successfully argue that BR's trademark was invalidated when they failed to object to Central City's similar designs. The whole situation leaves a far bitterer taste in the mouth than either of the excellent IPAs involved would do...

Phillips is philosophical. Sure, it hurt to change the name. And he is very clear with me that it hurt the company too. But he also understands that art and adversity are the most familiar of bedfellows.

MP: We're passionate about our beer but we're proud of what we do. So many breweries have so much in common, we have similar stories, and the names end up sounding similar. Looking for new names is a challenge. We can be days and days and days thinking up great names, then we look it up and it's already there. There's 30 red-truck brands in various segments, but we didn't have the money to fight it. There is a loss, to be honest, but we're really happy with the Blue Buck. And in the end, the beer carries itself.

Phillips Interview #2: Bodybuilders with Bad Backs

In this second part of three in the Phillips Brewery interview series, Matt Phillips talks about his taste in beers, and the challenges of producing and drinking a good India Pale Ale. Also, I get to drink three new Phillips brews — one of which is still in the testing phase.
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Phillips tells me that his best sellers are the Blue Buck ale and the IPA — which surprised me, as I thought the Phoenix Gold lager would outsell the IPA. Obviously you'd never mess with your best-sellers, right? Wrong. "Hop Circle," Phillips' new IPA, is actually an unfiltered reworking of the original recipe, and the impression I got is that Phillips sees it as a permanent replacement.

I'm a big fan of the original IPA, so my first instinct was to grab Phillips by the lapels and slap him around a bit. But before I could act he handed me the freshest-possible glass of Hop Circle, and I got over it pretty quick. This beer is simply better. It pours a lemony-gold colour, with a substantial haze (although my glass was the result of a near-explosive pour, which may have contributed to the suspension). The aroma is a blast of resiny hops — it actually smells very much like marijuana. The taste is rounder, a touch sweeter, but at least as bitter as the old IPA. I can't comment on the carbonation (my one problem with the old IPA was that it was always a bit too fizzy) — because the pour on this one left it kind-of flat, but the taste is spot-on. It *might* even be what at least one giddy blogger has called it — "the current IPA champion of BC" — but I'd have to drink some store-bought Hop Circle before I kicked Central City's Red Racer IPA off its throne.

Naturally, talk turned to IPA at this point, a beer that Phillips himself "drinks every day." The "raunchy and coarse" northwestern hops are clearly fundamental to his enjoyment of beer, and Phillips states bluntly that his own tastes govern what he brews (have you noticed that Phillips wide array of seasonals contains no sours? He's not particularly into them.) So, while I fail to draw Phillips on his favourite BC IPAs, he does offer a poetic angle on his go-to style:

MP: I've had some so-called "great" IPAs that have been sensational, and I've had them other times when they've been so-so. It all depends. You have to get them fresh. IPAs are so delicate. They're kind of like the bodybuilder with a bad back: they look really tough, but if you kick them in the knee they fall down. All the things that make an IPA really exciting are fleeting. You have to get them close to a brewery, you have to get them kept right, and without — say — a good bottle-filler? It's all wasted. 

During this speech something awakens in Phillips. He drops his measured, friendly demeanor, and excitement takes over. He calls out to a nearby worker and gestures at me to follow:
"Where's the Double Barrelled at?"
"Wherever that hose is going!"
Ten seconds later we're both drinking the Phillips Double Barrel — a Scotch Ale aged in fresh bourbon casks — poured from a tap set in the side of one of the thirty-foot tanks. It's a classy scotch ale, and I preferred it to the pretty decent Swans Brewpub version I had last week. "It's not so bourbony: less heat than last year," Phillips tells me. But I still get a powerful slug of bourbon, woody-vanilla, and figs from it. The booze is up-front, but not unpleasant.

- As a craft-brewer, are you comfortable with interesting inconsistencies between batches?

MP: Yes and no. With our regular beers, consistency is very important, and it's something we're always striving to perfect here. We're excited by the year-to-year variations in our seasonals. Some years we do the raspberry and it's blood-red, other times it might be a mild pink — but it could taste more powerful than the redder batch. It's really interesting. But our IPA should taste like an IPA every time, and our major aim is to deliver that.

I'm still finishing the scotch ale when Phillips makes another quick move and takes me to a tap poking out of a refrigerator. He pours me a pale-looking ale with a musky aroma I can't quite place. It tastes kind of sweet, like a malty brown-ale, but I also get a melony kick from it.

MP: This is a stone beer. It's fired with hot stones, so you get some caramelization when the hot stones hit the wort. It gives a lot of body and roundness and a real smokey flavour. It's a scottish style, light on the hops. Right now it's just a pilot beer but it could go forward.

- Do you brew a lot of experimental stuff?
MP: Oh sure. We could have three batches a week of experimental stuff. The stone beer is shaping up pretty well. Hey, let me show you the bottling line.

With that, I'm whisked to another part of the brewery, where we talk about the future of Phillips Brewery. I also manage to get Phillips to comment on a subject that has touched his own brewery — legal wrangles over copyright between craft-breweries.

But that's enough typing tonight. Catch it in part three.

Phillips Interview #1: Obligation to the Beer

Matt Phillips met me for an interview last week at the impressive Phillips Brewery in Victoria. Waiting for the interview to start, I hung around the reception area, which is reminiscent of a minimalist art bar: abstract portraits hang on brightly spot-lit walls, an engaging receptionist fills growlers from a row of Phillips taps, and video monitors set into the walls show live feeds of the brewers at work behind the scenes.

Phillips himself greets me with the relaxed charm of a seasoned host. He's about forty, I'd guess, but youthful-looking, animated, and definitely the likeable side of self-confident. He doesn't know exactly what I'm there for other than that I have a blog, but before I can completely explain, we're already peering into an enormous mash tun — with Phillips telling me how he shaped its domed top  by driving his car repeatedly over a slab of sheet metal.

Offbeat stories like that are commonplace in the Phillips folklore, which is pretty well-known, and there's no need to go into much detail here. Suffice to say, the brewery was a one-man show begun in 2001, with only a collection of maxed-out credit cards as startup capital. Nowadays, ask most people and they'd say Phillips is the most popular craft-brewery on the island, has a strong reputation throughout BC, and continues to make excellent beer year after year. Personally, a bottle of Phillips IPA turned me on to the Canadian craft-brew scene back in 2005, and I still buy them five years later.

The brewery itself is a hive of noise and activity, as you would expect from an outfit with nine beers in constant rotation (a number that swells to fifteen depending on seasonal brews). Rows of thirty-foot-high tanks line the main warehouse area, but the brewery snakes off in other directions, revealing nooks stuffed with ancient-looking equipment right next to work-spaces full of very fancy looking brewing kit. An annex houses a vast bottling line, with a pallet of "Hop Circle" (Phillip's revamped IPA) sixer boxes in the middle, waiting to be filled.

Busy it may be, but the workers all seem pretty content: lots of beards, T-shirts and grins. Phillips pours beers from a spluttering tap, pitches a glass of foam over his shoulder, then hands me an IPA so zingingly-fresh, I almost forget to ask my questions. We cover the usual craft-brew stuff: yes the passion comes before the business; no he doesn't feel tempted to "go macro"; yes Victoria is a great place to make good beer — but how so?

MP: Well for several reasons. First, the water is really good here. And the public, they have an interest and appreciation of beer here that you don't find in many places in Canada, apart from a few pockets. That pushes us and allows us to be free in what we do here. I've worked in conservative places where brewing has been all about just keeping the doors open. I didn't want to work in a place like that.

- But Phillips has grown so much. Do you ever feel pressured by your market to take fewer risks, seeing as things are going so well?

MP: Quite the opposite. One of the great things about having expanded is that we have the space and ability to do more things, we can afford to be adventurous, and the beers don't have to be commercial success. They're such small batches that if they don't sell through (which happens very occasionally) we're happy to bring them back and drink them ourselves.

- What did you have come back?

MP: The Double Surly came back. Now and again something's too much, or not quite the right fit. It can happen when you're constantly experimenting. But we loved it and were more than happy to drink what was left!

I ask about the artistic direction at the brewery. Phillips is at the helm in that regard, but ideas are generated at regular group meetings — which isn't surprising, when known innovative brewers like Benjamin Schottle are on the team. Schottle was the brewmaster at the — sadly now closed — Hugo's brewpub in Victoria, where he built a reputation brewing beers such as his "Super G Ginseng Ale."

Phillips regrets that they get so many ideas, they can't possibly pursue them all. I ask for an example of a wackier beer that they had to turn down, but not for the last time during the interview, Phillips steers away from a direct answer. I get the same non-committal response when I later ask him to name his favourite BC beer makers. Although he's clearly all about the craft first and foremost, Phillips' entrepreneurial instincts aren't about to let him reveal a possible future recipe, or risk offending an industry colleague, just so an amateur blogger can have something juicy to write about. I can't say I blame him...

- Speaking of new ideas, I notice Black Toque [Phillips' great India Dark Ale] has recently been rebranded as "Skookum Cascadian Dark Ale". How come?

MP: Thing about Black Toque is this. It's one of the first cascadian India dark ales out there. Now it's an official style. There's probably 30-40 brewed in the states. We really, really like it...[he gives me a wry grin]...problem is, nobody else seems to! So we're re-branding it, hoping it'll help it along a bit.

On that note, Phillips gives a little insight into the "necessary evil of marketing" that faces craft-brewers. Mostly about the detrimental cycle facing beers that don't get an audience right away: they get stuck on shelves longer, so when they get bought they don't taste so good, so they don't tend to get repeat buyers. With justification, Phillips illustrates his point with the example of Slipstream Ale — their cream ale that began life as "Draft-Dodger" — that only found its market after a re-branding and some perseverance. Nowadays, Slipstream does well, and sells plenty in BC. You have to take Phillips' point that sometimes, new ideas need a bit of a push. The popularity of craft-brewing probably owes a lot to preaching of the impassioned. Or as Phillips puts it, "Our obligation to the beer goes beyond bringing it into the world, we want to find a home for it too."


Part two of this interview is on its way.

Driftwood Interview Part 3: New Brews

In this final part of my Driftwood interview, we talk about future plans for Driftwood beers, sneaking more hops into the mix, and advice for would-be brewers. But first, some quickfire questions:

- What's your favourite Driftwood Beer?
JM: The Sartori was a fun beer. Just that whole time: driving out and meeting Christian Sartori, [owner of the Sartori Cedar Ranch, a fledgling hop farm south of Chilliwack, BC] picking up the fresh hops. It felt like something unique and exciting. I loved the whole experience, and I love the big beers.
K: Sartori and the Hildegaard, definitely.

- Hop lovers eh? Favourite IPAs?
JM: Locally speaking, I think the Phillips IPA is great, and they're doing incredible things at Central City Brewing with the Red Racer IPA. Other than that, the Boonville Anderson Hop Ottin', Green Flash from San Diego do great IPAs, and [Jason's eyes glaze over] Pliny the Elder is fucking awesome.

- What about your least favourite beer?
JM: Least favourite? Bud Light Lime makes me want to stake myself.

- Best pub in BC?
JM: Alibi room, no question. Nigel the owner is awesome. He'd drive down here if we had a new beer and pick it up in person, he's so keen to get the good stuff on tap.

- Best beer producing regions of Canada?
JM: Vancouver, Victoria and Montreal.

- No love for Saskatchewan? Paddock Wood is doing some good stuff right now...
JM: True! You know how Paddock Wood started out? They used to be the best homebrew supplies in the country by far. We'd take trips to Saskatoon from Edmonton just to pick up brewing supplies. They'd have stuff you couldn't get in the states even, people would drive from all over. They began putting out kits and I guess they just decided they might as well go all out and sell the beer.

Jason shows me the small office where the business side of things takes place. As we open the door, Jason's dog Suzie jumps at me from behind piles of brewing books, invoices and beer-bottle labels. Jason spends time out here working out new recipes and ideas for Driftwood while Kevin oversees the day-to-day management of the brewing. "For me the excitement of the physical process of brewing is kinda lost now. What I get a kick out of is dreaming up new stuff. It's so gratifying to have an idea form and end up out there in a tank, and then on to whoever drinks it."

- Speaking of which, are more beers on the way?
JM: As a matter of fact... There's an exciting new seasonal on the way, and the labels are already printed. We're calling it "Belle Royale." It's a triple golden ale with a restrained hop profile, and brewed with sour cherries. Belle Royale is a brew of whimsy, but we're confident it's going to work out great.

- Great news! But what about the hop-heads? You have to give us a little something?
KH: Oh, we're dying for a big hop beer.
JM: It's on the way. The Hildegaard did stupendously well, so we're probably going to introduce a fifth beer in continuous rotation: a 6–6.5%ABV IPA with 60-70 IBUs, malty and tons of northwest hops.
KH: In the meantime we've been satiating our desire for more hops by increasing the finishing hops in the Driftwood Ale, slowly but surely.
JM: The challenge right now is tank-space. We're going to wait until after the Sartori in the fall. We're brewing twice as much this year, a full forty-seven hectoliters.

We head back out into the warehouse. Suzie follows me around as I take a few final photos of the brewery. It's an impressive operation, especially as it was nothing more than a few home-brew recipes as little as two years ago. I ask Jason what advice he'd give a brew-newbie with aspirations of starting up an operation. "Start homebrewing, some of the best beer I've tasted anywhere is homebrew beer. You get other guys who start an operation after taking a course of study, and maybe spying a 'market opportunity', but somehow their beer always ends up tasting not-so-good." Jason advocates Dave Miller's homebrewing book as a "sensible system based on sound science." He tells me that once the recipes are good, brewing basically comes down to effective multitasking and attention to detail. "Plus you don't have to spend half-a-million. Some guys set up on $20,000 or less and grow from there." I presume these are meant as words of encouragement, but he clearly hasn't seen my bank account.

Driftwood already distributes beer across southern Vancouver Island, Vancouver, and parts of the Okanagan — which is almost as far as Jason "reasonably expects" they'll ever reach. And that's fine with him. "But there must be something more you dream about doing?' I say. He admits a pipe-dream involving moving to a small ranch with a few acres, growing their own hops, raising livestock, perhaps even a micro-fromagerie and a small bistro... I wouldn't be surprised if it all happens sooner rather than later, I say. "Oh, we haven't blown our wad yet," he replies, "we haven't even come close to it."


Many thanks to Jason and Kevin for such a rich interview. Watch this space for an interview with another of Victoria's prestigious craft-breweries — Phillips Brewing Company — coming in a few days.

Driftwood Interview Part 2: North American Brewing and Beer for Breakfast

In this second installation of my recent interview with Jason Meyer and Kevin Hearsum at the Driftwood Brewery in Victoria, BC, we discuss the North American brewing scene, CAMRA activities in Victoria, and the wild drinking habits of a brewer.

Our pints finished, Driftwood's Jason gives me a mini-tour of the brewery. There's a grist mill, grist hydrater, mash tun, jacketed kettle, and several other machines with supernatural qualities I do not understand. At the heart of the brewery are two fermenters — one for clean-yeast beer and one for Belgian. Jason and Kevin tell me that the Belgian beers (White Bark and Farmhand) take a lot more work, not least because they tend to yield a lot more sulphur which requires additional time to ferment out.

I ask if other, wilder yeast-based beers could be on the cards? Jason nervously suggests that he could use the regular fermenters, or he could always use the home-brew setup. Jason indicates his home-brew kit — 30 feet off the ground on a pallet. "Most of the Driftwood beers were worked out on that thing. If we were to do anything experimental we'd fire up the home-brew again".

- Speaking of experimental...the North American brew-scene is often renowned for its innovation, is this justified?
JM: Well...in my opinion, the North American craft-brew scene was started by the New Albion Brewery in North California in the 1980s. They were inspired by a trip to England, and they brought all their equipment over from England and brewed English beer. But some time in the 1990s they found their own voice — and I include us in that, as we're all part of the same culture. We started using more citrusy north-western hops, mixing ingredients, brewing unique stuff. It's not that it's "better", but we do stuff in North America that a German brewery would just never do.

- Aside from being daring, what else sets NA brewers apart from Europeans?
JM: "Daring" is a nice way to put it. Let me see...there's a celebratory culture about the NA scene. You could generalize Europe in terms of well-established approaches, it's steeped in brewing history. They are fiercely proud of it, the Belgians, English and Germans. But it's like an old comfortable pair of jeans. It's good, but it just "is". They don't have the equivalent of the Great American Beer Festival over there, where everyone's like "woo-hoo check US". That self-celebration is unique.

- It seems to me that folklore and mystique play a great part in the NA beer-scene. Certain beers develop an almost cult-like status, and people expend a lot of effort and money to acquire them.
JM: You always want what you can't have. A lot of these beers that seem unobtainable are not. Word of mouth, the zeitgeist, shrewd marketing, quality of the beer — where the smokiness of those ideas come together produces the cult status. There is that element, but truth is if you do not have a modicum of good distribution you're done. Unless you're super small.
KH: Recently a few artisan foody places came specifically looking for our product, and we are proud of it. But we're also aware that some places want to be able to say "we've got the Driftwood!"

The Driftwood guys' comments make me reflect on the English beer scene. As a Brit, I am aware of the ongoing fight to rescue the image of craft beer from the arena of the "old fart". In contrast — from my experience working at the liquor store — BC craft beer drinkers seem to enjoy the aura of the young and informed: beers like Driftwood and Phillips are very much hipster-hooch. So as craft beer continues its recession-defying growth in popularity in North America, I wonder what challenges beer industry advocates in Canada and the US are facing:

- The BC craft beer industry is thriving, so what does the Victoria chapter of CAMRA actually do?
JM: Well...we're paid-up members of CAMRA Victoria and BC. They've disassociated themselves from the stodgy, "old dude" issues brewers face in Britain. They're more a set of general beer advocates, looking out for the industry. But they're still concerned with measures and prices. When we're putting together a CAMRA meeting, the biggest questions are always "Where do we meet? How much does a pint cost there? Is it a real pint?" For the record (Jason indicates his empty Driftwood-branded pint glass) we do twenty ounces!

- Drinking must be part of your job, how much do you drink?
JM: We make a point of having a pint or two after a shift. Sometimes we have a bit of "sensory" first thing in the morning, believe it or not...

- Does it ruin social drinking for you?
JM: Oh, not at all. Social drinking is very much detached from the kind of appraisal drinking we do here.

- So you still go out and drink a lot of other people's beers?
JM: Oh fuck yeah. And that's why we do so many seasonals. We assume our customers are drinkers like us and they want new stuff. I sure as shit don't drink the same thing every day. Kevin went down to Portland recently and came back with a couple of boxes of great new stuff, I'd have been mad if he hadn't!

The final part of this interview will be published soon

Driftwood Interview Part 1: Philosophy, Craft Beer, and Chicken Cordon Bleu

Victoria's own Driftwood Beer kindly granted me an interview at their brewery on Monday night. Driftwood is a relatively new brewery in Victoria, but it already has an enviable reputation as a serious craft brewery who deliver traditional styles to high standards, and seasonal brews that sell-out immediately.

It was either my excitement, or the bottle of Brookyln Brewery Local One I had beforehand, but I kept brewers Jason Meyer (CEO of Driftwood) and Kevin Hearsum (president) talking for over an hour. Loathe to leave much on the editor's floor, I will publish the interview in three parts. Today I'll cover the Driftwood way™ as well as Jason's and Kevin's ideas about the beer industry on Vancouver island and beyond.

The exterior of Driftwood is about as anonymous as it gets, tucked into the corner of an industrial complex with only a small sign distinguishing it from a cluster of warehouses. Jason welcomes me in to the 3,500 square-foot space that has housed Driftwood since it was launched in 2008. Kevin is busy hosing something down between two enormous tanks. I feel aware I know next-to-nothing about the brewing process, and am bewildered by the array of tanks, machines, and sheer noise I am witnessing. "Can I get you a beer?" asks Jason. Ah. Familiar ground. I receive a lively pint of Farmhand Ale from a tap mounted in the side of their on-site chiller, and the interview begins.

I ask about the Driftwood philosophy. Jason pours himself a pint and tells me that he and Kevin recognized an opportunity to establish the only producer of traditional Belgian-style beers in BC. In addition to the Southern-Belgian Farmhouse Ale I am happily drinking as we talk, Driftwood's permanent four-strong line-up comprises a Belgian wheat beer (White Bark), an Alt-style amber ale (Crooked Coast), and a "quintessential" Northwest ale with dry malts and bold hops (Driftwood Ale).

Respect for tradition hasn't prevented Driftwood producing some interesting seasonal beers (the Sartori Harvest Wet-hopped IPA being a standout). But Jason is quick to distinguish innovation from gimmickry, something that clearly irks him about current production trends.

JM: This bullshit of honey beers. You gotta use so much honey to make it taste like beer. It's uber-fermentable, it's fructose, it's gonna ferment out. It's just marketing, to me it's kind of crass. It's not sincere or authentic. Our whole MO is authenticity. We don't filter our beers. Yet we don't run around saying "we don't filter our beers," we just don't filter it.

– So you're opposed to trends?
JM: I'm in favour of a trend toward double IPAs and imperial pilsners!

– Driftwood's beers contain special ingredients, don't they?
JM: We brew to traditional Belgian recipes, which include Curacao orange peel and pepper. That's not to say that if an intriguing ingredient presented itself to us we wouldn't be prepared to use it. But there's a line between finding an interesting new botanical or a spice, and choosing an ingredient so you can overtly fly a flag about the fact this shit is in your beer.

Driftwood was established on the principles of providing fresh, quality beer for local people. Jason's enthusiasm is palpable as he recounts how he began brewing at age 19, was influenced by a creative brewing scene in Edmonton ("they were doing stuff like triple decoction mashes, stuff that no commercial brewery can do, it was just incredible"), and gained experience working in several breweries, including Victoria's Lighthouse Brewing where he and Kevin hatched the plan for Driftwood.

It was their experiences working in commercial brewing operations that inspired Jason and Kevin to build a brewery with the needs of workers very much in mind.

JM: We wanted to produce a space, a nice place to be, we wanted the people who work here to be proud of what they do, to promote this because they believe they are doing something meaningful. [At Lighthouse] Kevin spent three years hunched over a plate and frame filter inside a giant walk-in cooler, filtering beer, in the dark.
KH: It sucked.
JM: So when we built this place we designed it with lined walls, to create a decent, open, warm space for everyone. We don't have people working at weekends. We don't want people working graveyard shifts. That puts a limit on how big you can get. But it's a moral and good and fun place to be in.

"Getting big" is not the aim, but commercial success is clearly important when an operation on Driftwood's scale will cost upward of half a million Canadian dollars to get going. I ask whether well-publicized hikes in the cost of hops and other brewing-related crops are a challenge to the sustainability of craft beer outfits, but Jason and Kevin dismiss raw material prices as a lesser issue. Craft brewers might not generally get rich, but a good living is still there to be made with hard work, passion, and most importantly a receptive market.

– So what is the Vancouver Island beer market like?
KH: It's a more sophisticated drinking culture here these days. There are so many taps in this city and pubs are putting new ones in all the time. They're more than happy to put out every new product we make.
JM: In Victoria 20 years ago chicken cordon-bleu was the most exotic food item you could get! But it's all changed now. The internet age has made us more sophisticated, more suspicious of manufactured messages, of commercialism. Now there's a really active support for local producers and we're lucky we fit right into that.

Part two of this interview will be published soon